The top barrel is true Damascus, from a Purdey 10 gauge. As I said in my reply, I donât think shooting a Damascus gun is worth the risk, match or not. Very shootable shotgun with Black powder loaded shells ONLY with recommended loads due to the damascus barrels. I will make sure to message you first thing when I make a "What length barrel should I get?" The other option is the CZ full length one, but I believe the Cimarron is a copy of the Colt 1878 and the CZ is just a hammered SxS. They were designed for black powder shells only. 1860 Aug 23. I agree, but that is an issue every time we shoot a match, new guns or old. I have seen multiple handguns blow up at matchâs due to poor handloads. Cimarron offers the 1878 in 26" barrels. A common caliber is .22 and is often followed by letters, such as .22 L and .22 S, which indicate that the bullets are designed to work with long-barrel and short-barrel rifles, respectively. "Promo" 12s ones for sale at WalMart are loaded with small charges of fast powder, to save cost, and work at fairly high pressure. Shotgun is staggered, picked up and shot, then restaged.Â. The smokeless powder shells made for them run from 6,000psi to about 8,000psi and … Regarding the fun comment, we are all in "It" for the fun. Black powder guns are a whole different ball game compared to shooting standard firearms, but are still used for sport, reenactment, and enthusiast shooting. https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/1878-coach-gun-12-ga-26-barrel-standard-blue.html. Back in the black powder shotgun days, barrels were formed around an anvil from twisted steet and forge welded together. Price is $400.00 and Includes Shipping. What's your favorite club? Iron and steel ribbons were twisted and welded together. Loading black powder is not a disadvantage. The problem is, I really doubt if you can find a gunsmith competent in old Damascus doubles in USA. In Europe, especially England, there are government proof houses that proof even old doubles with smokeless loads. Yet most of these old doubles will chamber and fire the most powerful and high pressure smokeless loads (But not safely).Â, Here is my New Ithaca double that was made in late 1990s. I have 2 remington 1889's that are a hoot to shoot. Barrels are 32 inches, chambered for 2 5/8 inch shells, not for 2 3/4 inch. Shooting a 12 round CAS stage and heating those barrels up so hot you can’t hold them?  The question to ask yourself:  Are Pizzazz and "Style Points" worth ... perhaps ..... your hand?? Nearly impossible to find someone that will defard a firearm though. I'm doing a lot of traveling. The forend is checkered and has a small chip on the bottom center at the action. Be sure to have the gun checked. I have a 20" double, 28", and 26" so far. Now you can resurrect your Damascus Barrel Shotgun! Another way to go is to "defarb" the Cimarron 1878 to look like an antique Colt 1878. No one got hurt, thankfully but there was a lot of steel flying around.  You canât always see this rust and failures can happen on guns with seemingly bright bores (though its more comon in barrels with visible putting). Bullets with a full metal jacket are ideal for shooting fast-moving targets since their casing lets them travel faster. Right here at Buffalo Arms … I currently have 4 British hammer guns with Damascus barrels, 3 of which I shoot with BP and another that had it's chamber lengthened to 2 3/4" and was re-proofed for smokeless in 2003 which I use for skeet with smokeless ammo. The 12 gauge was made about 1900 and has steel barrels that were proofed for nitro. But nitro loads then are not the same as modern 12 gauge ammo. Even with black powder shells you can have explosive failure with damascus barrels! If you shoot at a club with facades containing windows and doors...etc, etc, going around these obstacles can be very trying. 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I'll bring some different barrel lengths for you to try. © 2021 Academy Sports + Outdoors. Guess I'll be making some calls tomorrow. This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies. Damascus barrels are weaker than modern barrels and are not designed for the high gas pressures created by modern ammunition. That why you see the real old doubles with big tall hammers that strike high on the breach. Later models had smaller, shorter and lower hammers with firing pins more inline with the bores. http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-hammer-classic-12-30-5-choke-tubes/. YUP-Facts are stubborn details, ain't they.Â. I loaded black powder or a black powder substitute in modern, plastic shot shells and use that rather than take chances. Black powder will give you the same velocity as modern powders, at lower pressure. 2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: 6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: 13 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: 3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: 2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: 17 minutes ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said: Western Pennsylvania, Keystone of Freedom, CAS, Fine Wood Working, Toggle Link Rifle Tuner , SA Tuner. Type is external hammer side by side black powder shell shotgun. Shop our collection of obsolete & black powder Ammo for sale, we also offer the reloading supplies for these old and obsolete calibers so you can reload your own ammo. Do not fire modern loads in this shotgun with its Damascus barrels. All the black and white pattern shows on the barrels, the wood is almost flawless, there is 70% of the case hardening coloring on the locks and receiver- this gun was cleaned, oiled and stored away in the 1920's- with the concern about Damascus barrels bursting with smokeless powder loads-so it has not been handled very much in past 80 years. American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. It was not designed for modern high pressure smokeless powder loaded 2 3/4 or 3 inch or magnum shells or steel shot.  The bores are still bright and the gun is very light and points wonderfully. Very nice! Secondly, I have and shoot a damascus twist side by side by another manufacture than Winchester. Here is my Cimarron 1878 with 26" above an original Colt 1878 with 30".Â, Mary shoots a Stoeger Uplander with 26" barrels and is deadly with it. Most every stage we shoot does not require moving with a gun.  Think about it real hard. Of course after a reputable SxS gunsmith has given the OK. (With the exception of the Pigeon loads, A-5, Heavy Hunting) Welcome to. If you want to get some black powder shells loaded, that will work. Copyright 2019 sassnet.com Black Powder Shotgun Shells This is the site i …  The rust works its way between the layers of steel in the barrel making a weak spot that can give in a very bad way. In England you can send you old shotguns to a proof house and have them approved for smokeless powder shells. A fellow at our gun club had a 10 bore Belgian gun falsely labeled "manton" on it. I have several old doubles in my collection of shotguns and have shot at the Southern Side by Side one time (a pretty good trek from So. I shoot my old doubles with Damascus barrels with light black powder or equivalent subs. You could proof the gun (load it with a double charge and a large amount of shot, tie it to a tire and fire it with a string to see if it blows up) but even if the gun does not blow up, you are apt to break something. Don't bother...I've seen your movie before. 4.0 (4) Traditions .50 Caliber 250-Grain Smackdown Centerfire Ammunition.  In fact, the one pictured has the 26" barrels. SASS Wire Vet; PS: For what it's worth, shooting one at a match doesn't appear to be what stopsign32v is going to be doing...so my comment is kind of meant for those that are thinking about using one at an actual match. Construction is Damascus or twist steel barrels, not designed for high pressure smokeless powder; steel receiver and parts; and European Walnut Buttstock and forend. It actually has steel barrels that were imprinted somehow to look like Damascus. By Also, my guns are of quality American manufacturers, Remington, Colt, Parker, LC Smith, Baker, Ithaca, etc. There are many European doubles that are of top quality also but many more that were hardware store guns that were of questionable quality to start with. Â. barrels on Damascus shotguns. But... as I and it have gotten older, I decided that it was no longer worth the risk. There is a pretty significant group of collectors of old double guns who regularly shoot Damascus barrels.  Itâs a personal choice, but I have other shotguns to shoot. But thanks for the offer, appreciate it. Academy offers a full range of ammo online so you can find exactly what you need for a successful day of shooting. Geox makes black powder loads in 12 guage but have no idea what level they're loaded to. Black Powder Shotgun Shells The conventional shotgun cartridge is designed for black powder. In this video I have a Remington and Sons 1882 10 gauge between Remington Arms 1889 10 and 12 gauge. Note how the 1882 looks like a muzzleloader at first glance. The 1889 is starting to change to a more modern design.Â. The action locks up tight bore is shiny with no pitting the mechanics of the weapon work as they should.The shells are extracted not ejected. The bottom barrel is twist steel, from an Ithaca 12 gauge. Wall hanger if it belonged to me. They didn't even call it "black" powder. Smokintom is correct. Acid etching was often used to accentuate these patterns. Â. 99.9¢ per round. Some people are probably after the fun and nostalgia and not necessarily looking for that extra .009 seconds. Why the fake Damascus? Because steel barrels were much cheaper and because they were thin and light, old timers didn't trust them. French and British proof houses had very stringent standards. However Belgian shotguns with Damascus barrels don't have the same stringent standards. Wish they were at least 26", You'll like the shorter barrels, when deal'n with stage props etc. Â. On shooting the gun. With smokeless shotgun powders, you have a burn of around 18" of pressure, with the pressures staying semi constant for this duration/length of burn. They were made for low pressure, black powder loads. These barrels worked like they were supposed to with the old low pressure black powder shot shells back when they were made. $1199. It is unsafe to shoot smokless powder ammo in a Damascus barrel. As you may be aware, Damascus barrels were made by twisting heated strands of wire around a mandrel, reheating and then hammer forging them. Whether you need ammunition for target practice, hunting purposes or defensive measures, there is plenty of ammo for sale at Academy from the most popular brands like Federal, Winchester and more. For hunting I’ll use black; I don’t want to offend the ancient spirits by using anything but original black powder when in the field. By selecting appropriate ammunition for your firearm, the chance of jamming is greatly reduced. It is one I have inspected as well as I can for deep pitting, etc, in an effort to assure a barrel won't burst. Except if it blows at a match...then yer making a choice for those around you. The gun will have damascus barrels. ). August 5, 2018 in SASS Wire. A quality damascuss barrel in good condition can handle modern shells. Our shells are safe to shoot in Vintage Guns. The higher grade guns still had Damascus barrels. Â, Note how the hammers are smaller, shorter and spurs laid back. It's not really possible to cock both hammers at one time. Damascus or “Damascus twist” barrels are older shotgun barrels that typically were made before 1900. A disadvantage of nitro- powders is that rapid acceleration takes place, which may lead to …  What I donât have is a spare left hand or pair of eyes. How in the world did I miss this? As for visual inspection, it canât really be done with a Damascus barreled gun. My Fox Sterlingworth has 30" barrels, and I think it's great. Around the 1880s, Damascus barrels became an object of the past. 12 Gauge Black Powder Adapter - Black Out Series. But hey, everyone gets to make their own choices in life. This is NOT a muzzle loading adapter it is a reloadable shell. The next generation were new style frames but built with muzzleloader locks and barrels. My point is, most people wouldn't consider shooting an old muzzleloader shotgun or rifle yet these old shotguns are not that different in construction and materials.  Cartridge guns of the same timeframe are difficult to shoot because the cartridge they shoot are long obsolete as in all the rim fire (except 22) and many others.  I don't consider most Damascus guns as safe. The trial of a certain black powder substitute brand began because it was so cheap ($9.95 a pound) and readily available. Jim, they were also rigorously tested in a proofing house before being allowed to be sold. This 12 gauge adapter is for Break Action Shotguns and allows you to reload the adapter with Black Powder and lead shot. Wisdom says, only shoot Black Powder rounds in a sound Damascus barreled shotguns. It must be remembered that many, if not most, of the shotguns made with Damascus barrels were intended for use with blackpowder shotgun shells, which develop less pressure than even light smokeless powder loads (and also have a different pressure curve). No, this type of barrel was designed to withstand the pressures of black powder, not smokeless powder. 2 3/4 will increase the pressure. Thank you! Cheaper Than Dirt! Buttstock has a checkered wrist and semi-fancy wood. Another thing to keep in mind about these old doubles is that they are only one generation past being a muzzleloader.  The glory years of the old hammer doubles was roughly 1870 to 1890. The very first breach loading shotguns were conversion of muzzle loaders. Most Parker 12s were 2 5/8 inch chambers.  I shot it so much I had to make new fireing pins  for it. YOU sir just made my night!!! ... After 6 or 8 reloads, if it hangs together - I reload with square powder loads equivalent to 1 oz shells and use them for SASS Link to post Share on other sites. The action functions correctly.  I shot it for years with handloads of bp and later pyrodex (someone gave me about 20 lbs and I donât like it in a handgun or rifle, but the shotgun wads do a pretty good job of scraping out the hard fouling). $1499. With a 97, I went from a 20 to a 30 inch barrel and never looked back. The caliber of ammunition indicates the internal diameter of each bullet's barrel and offers an easy way to determine whether a certain type of bullet will fit in your gun. Naturally it had damascus barrels on it of poor Belgian quality, not English best quality. When steel barrels came out, they were always the lowest grade guns. Both damascus barreled one is a 10 gauge and the other is a 12. It was designed using the technology and metallurgy of the times when it was made. If your gun has Damascus barrels, then you should only use black powder. It was designed for black powder 2 1/2 shells loaded with lead shot. It was invented around 1870 when black powder was the only kind of gunpowder that anyone had ever heard of. The powder is called Alliant Black MZ powder. Seems no one has them in stock. Remember that Damascus barrels where set up/made for Black powder, hence full pressure as the primer ignites the powder, and the pressure dropping down as the shot starts to move down the barrel. So since it looks like you don't actually shoot SASS (which is fine...don't need to shoot in order to play here on the Wire), but may be shooting some time in the future, sometimes it's best to listen to those that have been shooting. Not worth the risk. There is a safe solution to get these family heirlooms back into action though.  Guys at the club that have the 20" version say the 26" feels about the same weight and points better. Anyone that's in this game understands this. The barrels are 30" both full choke. Stopsign32v, Also, short barrels existed during the "Cowboy era". So... at the risk of actually answering the original question. The manufacturing process for Damascus, or twist steel barrels like this one’s was simpler than the solid steel barrels required to withstand the higher pressures of smokeless powder loaded shells that came online around 1900. Hornady Great Plains 50 Black Powder 385-Grain Maxi HB HP Ammunition. Explore the verity of trusted brands like CVA, Hornady, Traditions, Thompson Center and more. This fellow loaded his own shells with a scoop as though he was loading black powder but he used Nitro instead. Remember that black powder is Hygroscopic. So are all these nice damascus side by side shotguns only wall hangers or are they safe to shoot with black powder or substitute?  I have seen and shot some Damascus guns that can be considered safe. Some of those guns cost more than a really nice car. Good luck on a gunsmith being able to tell ya if there are any voids in the steel... By all means, go long on the barrels. Also have a Damascus barreled shotgun that's proofed for smokeless.  Â. To ensure a kill shot when hunting big game like caribou or deer, choose hollow-tip ammunition that allows the bullet to expand upon impact, optimizing internal damage. I shoot my old doubles with Damascus barrels with light black powder or equivalent subs. But only in the guns I have that I have confidence in their soundness. I've never shot smokeless of any load level in my Damascus barreled guns. Both tubes mike at .705 at the muzzle. I haven't come across the first reproduction that has the pizzazz of them old hammered guns though! Cal. Thank you so much for your help and advice. Here is a Cemerron 1878 below an original Colt 1878. Someone posted a picture of one that had been color case hardened. Â, I shoot a CZ-USA Hammer Coach Gun. It is a nice looking gun and had tall hammers close together so they can both be cocked with a sweep of the hand.Â. Powered by Invision Community. I'm going the route you suggested and having everything case hardened except the barrels. I have become addicted to English hammered shotguns to the detriment of my wallet. With the availability of reproductions of old doubles, it just makes more sense to shoot them instead. $3699. Where do you shoot? shooting, hunting, fishing, blacksmithing, http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php, ''Hav'n you along, is like losing 2 good men", Jackson Hole Gang - Monmouth County Rangers, Cajon Cowboys, Green Mountain Regulators,Plum Creek, Tusco Long Riders, Brown Township Regulators, Firelands Peacemakers, Ohio Valley Vigilantes, Indiana Black Powder Guild, River City Regulators (#7), Alaska 49rs, NRA Life Member. Black Powder Shotgun Ammo at Buffalo Arms Company Sells over 12,000 Black Powder Cartridge Rifles, Black Powder, Cowboy Guns, Gun Books, Gun Videos, Obsolete Brass, Reloading supplies has the supplies that you need to get started in black powder shooting, including powder, patches, wads, and projectiles.  I am still looking for a shotgun I like as well. Buy Muzzleloaders, Black Powder Guns & Accessories at Bass Pro Shops. thread, this ain't it though. Even with Damascus and Twist Steel barrels! That is to say that if you don’t … Reading the magazines of the time, there was often a letter from a reader asking about this and the answer was always the same – modern, smokeless powder shells will blow-up the.  I used to shoot a John Shaw and Sons London double with Damascus barrels. CZ-USA offers a hammer gun with 30" barrels. Warden Callaway. By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use. There are no cracks or chips. 1865. Sept 18. Â. Only then if the bores and such look sound. 5.0 (3) Hodgdon Pyrodex® .50 50-Grain Black Powder Pellets.
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